In the beginning, it sounds like a tempting offer: Spend the second year of your master degree at Bocconi, one of Europe’s leading business schools, learn Italian and how to live la dolce vita in Milano.
No access to needed facilities
Six weeks into the semester, with October midterm exams ahead, dolce vita and double degree both seem distant. But triple trouble is taking its toll: CBS’ students from all CBS double degree programmes have no access to the library, no access to study materials and certainly no perspective on how to solve these problems quickly and efficiently.
The Bocconi administration seems utterly taken by surprise as faced with second year graduate students who have to take first year courses and don’t seem to fit into any study plan.
Communication chaos
What the double degree students criticise most in this situation is the lack of information on the situation in Milan and the enrolment process. While Rene Barseghian from CBS’ Double Degree office says that the outgoing students have been informed about administrative problems and that the communication flow is “less than perfect”, students criticise that many of the enrolment and study plan approvals could have been taken care of before their arrival at Bocconi.
The procedure that incoming CBS’ double degree students have to go through in order to be enrolled and gain access to the library and study materials on Bocconi’s equivalent of e-Campus and SiteScape sounded very simple. In reality there have been a number of pitfalls on the way, none of which were known by the double degree offices and were neither communicated to the students ahead of time.
Bureaucratic chaos
- It has taken up an incredible amount of time to get our study plan approved, especially when the choice of modules was changed and we had to pick new modules two weeks into the semester, reports SMC-student Robert Schønthal Preuss and goes on to explain that with having to redo the whole procedure, the SMC students are now already five weeks behind in their reading, because they still don’t have access to all their study materials.
No timely information
The other two CBS MSc-lines that have a double degree agreement with Bocconi have experienced some of the same problems – Management of Innovation & Business Development (MIB) and Management of Creative Business Processes (CBP). The MIB-students, however, seem to have had a little more luck with their study plan:
- I have managed pretty OK compared to some others. Basically the most annoying thing has been the crazy late enrolment, says MIB-student Jesper Bech Hansen, according to whom the MIB students have a more general curriculum, which enables them to choose from a greater variety of courses than the others – something that facilitates the finalisation of their study plan.
- I think it’s much easier to be an exchange student or have another status than the SMC-double degree students, because the module choice is not that complicated then, Robert Schønthal Preuss acknowledges.
Queues could have been avoided with appropriate communication
The CBS SMC-student stresses the fact that much of the hassle could have been avoided by communicating the rules and regulations earlier, so that everyone was prepared. This would not just have avoided al the unnecessary queuing at the Bocconi administration offices and the questions that consume time for both students and administration, it would also have made it possible for CBS’ students to be aware of the full consequences of doing a double degree instead of a normal exchange semester ahead of time.
No responsible instance
It is, however, unclear who should have communicated these consequences. It certainly isn’t the double degree offices administering the double degree agreements. In her welcome presentation, spokesperson Lisa Giovanitti from the Bocconi double degree office stressed the fact that all double degree students are regularly enrolled students expected to deal with Bocconi administration on the same terms as all of the other students.
Admission office in crossfire
The admissions office has the unrewarding task of dealing with all of the students from all of Bocconi’s graduate and undergraduate programs. It is inundated with requests, and it acts according to its guidelines for the respective study programmes. These do not necessarily fit double degree students – they take modules from both of Bocconi’s graduate program’s study years. Also, the double degree admissions are out of sync with the student administration office, regarding access to Bocconi’s equivalent of SiteScape and e-Campus, where students should be able to access their study material. Basically, nobody is taking the responsibility for the present situation.
Getting pragmatic
Many of CBS’ double degree students still don’t have any access to their study materials. Still, their initial frustration, despair and pronounced wish to let double degree be double degree and go back to taking a single degree in Copenhagen after one semester has settled. It has been replaced by a more pragmatic stance towards their situation.
- I don’t want to end up with even more gray hairs, just because Bocconi is slow. I’m here to learn and not to fight an administrative system that I don’t understand anyway. The most important thing for me is that the actual teaching is not affected by the administrative problems, and the professors are very understanding of our situation, says Jesper Bech Hansen.
Christina Meyer, CBS MSocSc in Management of Creative Business Processes-student with all the same access problems as the others, agrees:
Unexpected help from professor hasn't helped much yet
- The worst thing is really that we are lagging behind with our material and that we have not been informed properly and in time about the situation here. However, one of our professors has been incredibly supportive and even went to the student services with us to help sort things out – although even he hasn’t succeeded yet.
Culturally challenged
With even professors not succeeding in pushing the right buttons, the situation continues its ordained path. The theory among the CBS-students is that it must be an Italian thing, a mentality so deeply rooted that complaining amounts to fighting against windmills – after all, Bocconi Business School is considered to be one of the best universities if not the best business school in Italy and one of the most organised ones.
,
- Bocconi is actually a mild case. It is the only Italian university with a broad range of English-language courses and a large proportion of foreign students. Still, it remains difficult for both students, professors and International Officers to anticipate and comprehend the behaviour of people in a different culture, says vice dean of education at CBS Sven Bislev, promising that CBS will go on trying to help as much as possible.
Robert Schønthal Preuss and Jesper Bech Hansen both argue that even though you are willing and prepared to accept that some things work differently in another culture, there are certain organizational things you can’t blame on culture alone. Nevertheless, they see their frustration diminish and the positive factors prevailing. The same is the case with Christina Meyer:
- It will have taken a lot of effort and annoyance. But on the other hand we get to spend a whole year at one of the best universities in Italy, receive two master degrees with courses that are really relevant to our program and get connections to businesses in all sorts of industries and sectors, she says.
So after two months of constant windmill-fighting, CBS’ double degree students seem to have risen to the cultural challenge after all.
Kommentarer
fre, 13/11/2009 - 11:31
Troubles yes, unexpected no
Saluti'
Decent article, it is nice that we have our own reporter here with us in Milan although the focus seems a bit narrow and skewed.
Well, I agree that some people have faced great trouble but seriously think about it... did you guys expect it to be a walk in the park???
It is surely tiresome and in the middle of all this administration I have also found myself wondering several times what am I doing here... but when I take that emotional stress aside I am deeply thankful for the possibility of having the option of studying a double degree and I believe Bocconi has done pretty well in accommodating us and giving us equal terms with the regular single degree students here although the planning of access to web-learning and the confirmation of the study plan went far too slow and should have been done in advance.
On the other hand I think that they in general manage it very well and each professor tries to accommodate these imperfections in the best possible way.I would like to add that I was initially in group with 3 of the students who were not eligible for a course and had to cancel it although they were very enthusiastic about joining that course. It is worth to mention that their problem is more related to their program restrictions, which is newly established, and not the double degree in general. Finally the professor in this course has accommodated my problem of changing group with a mutual agreement on another assignment.
Especially considering Bocconi is run by Italians. Honestly I believe my major frustrations have been more in regards to the Milan authorities, for example when trying to get the Codice Fiscale, neurotic neighbors and similar administrative burdens.
Another disappointment of mine is our bad organizing as Danes here, like trying to watch and arrange to watch the Danish football match together was a complete disaster and it seems obvious after that we are all divided in several small, closed and very well-defined groups...In fact I don't even remember talking to our reporter at any point here in Milan (sorry if I was drunk and/or non-attentive) although I did request a friendship with her on FB after reading this article and we are now friends on FB, cheeers'
However, I think it would have been nice with some more formal introduction of all double degree students from CBS going to Milan prior to leaving and not those ad-hoc hosted events, so we could have shared contacts and helped each other facing and dealing with the problems being referred to here in the article instead of complaining and crying 1-2 months later.
Honestly I remember my last two months at Bocconi a lot different than what is being represented in the article...
Bocconi has reacted promptly to my demands and has also shown great flexibility to my needs and my situation as a double degree student (even today), worth mentioning that Bocconi also allows us to use their career service, job portals and internship programs which are state of the art...
I think you "brokkehoveder" should calm down.
Honestly I can think of a lot more administrative troubles with CBS than what I encountered here so far (7-9-13)...
Furthermore I think the double degree program could of course be improved and be run more smoothly, but nevertheless I think a double degree is a really cool opportunity to avoid the temporary feeling of being an Erasmus but being accepted and perceived on equal terms as your class mates, I believe that matters a lot...
Could it be possible that some of the encountered troubles is due to the fact that Milan has some great night clubs and decisions were taken with a lot of hangovers, just wondering ;-)
Cordiali saluti / Best Regards / Mvh'
Christopher Lilholm
+39 329 5872 834 / +45 51 90 79 77
Milan, Italy / Copenhagen K, Denmark
Student: M.Sc. MIB / M.Sc. EMIT(-LS)
NB: Kasper thanks for great input and some extremely detailed information on your individual ECTS structure, very useful :-)
Irony aside, the link to the dialog you post in the end is very articulate and a much more relevant contribution although it seems as a matter of taste, bias and preference and since it is a read-only link I can't debate the subject further although I would like to.
Finally, It is a cool suggestion to use the EMIT-LS title as Cand.Oecon.MIT, but before using that title could we perhaps check the validity of doing so?
man, 16/11/2009 - 16:12
Re:
Firstly thanks for a well-written paper that in a respectful tone gets its message across.
Since the last two comments have been from MIB students, here is my input.
If any non-Italians where asked what their initial perception of Italian bureacracy and structure would be, then most people without knowledge would most likely answer that such terms are non-existent in Italy. 20 degrees Celsius by the end of October, pasta and parmesan, wine and friendly Italian laissez-faire attitude all combined with the best university in Italy where supposed to make up for this. In my opinion it definitely has. The other part is something the entire country struggles with, and Northen Europe should in fact find great comfort in the lack of structure, because the day Italy catches up on that account, what is left up North? And Christopher I second your comment: Wasn't it expected?
Kasper, besides your ECTS calculations is a bit off, and then nothing of this can come as a surprise. We were well informed about how many courses to take in Italy. The two "forced" workshops of 3 ECTS substitutes a 6 ECTS course, where is the problem in that? And by forced you mean complying with general rules of a fulltime EMIT-LS student at Bocconi?
The Spring semester is busy with both an internship, 8 ECTS in statistics and thesis. Luckily this was also communicated in advance, and both of us already did our internship and only have 8 ECTS and our thesis left. I think there is plenty of time to make it for graduation in July.
Finally, remember that there could be no correct translation of your degree into Danish, as Cand.Oecon is a protected title (as far as I know). And in terms of content it will not only be illegal to call yourself cand.oecon but also misleading. The best translation is Cand.Merc MIB, which explains why we have a partnership.
I strongly recommend future double degree students to pursue a year at Bocconi. If you read this and are thinking about going, feel free to contact me: peer.harpoeth@gmail.com
Cordiale Saluti
Peer Harpøth
tir, 17/11/2009 - 20:24
Keep on commenting - OBJECTIVELY
Hey guys,
first of all thanks for commenting so extensively, that's exactly why I asked for this article to be put on the website! This way we can have a more complete picture that takes in even more perspectives than could be expressed in the article – and hopefully help future double degree students to be informed about what they can expect: Both positive and negative sides of the coin. In this respect, thanks a lot to Peer for putting his email address up here and offering information on his experience to people considering this adventure.
Concerning the other comments, there was unfortunately some stuff in Danish which I am not able to understand fully, but it seems to me that parts of the comments were very study-specific content not really relevant to the general readers of the article or, for me not really acceptable, of a rather personal attacking nature which definitely does not belong here.
What you make out of your stay of course depends on your own mindset and how you pursue certain things. This is what makes the article applicable to other exchange experiences, too – how much of the differences and oddnesses can you blame on the culture and just have to put up with? How much can you yourself actually put up with? And in how far does this limit change when you are informed about things beforehand?
However, these are questions I would be happy to see being discussed here in a general, objective way (and of course true and fact checked as far as ECTS, courses and procedures are concerned), neither starting personal attacks on people's individual mindset, nor quarrelling about details that make the discussion difficult to follow for the other readers. I would like this discussion to inform people as faceted as possible about this topic and to help them make up their mind about whether they feel up to the challenge or not. In this sense: Please keep on commenting – objectively as far as possible!
ons, 18/11/2009 - 19:13
Some commentaries deleted
I have deleted some commentaries because they were in Danish, insulting and did not stick to the topic of the article.
Regards
Jørn Albertus, cbsobserver.dk
søn, 22/11/2009 - 18:34
A further piece of information
Ciao tutti'
I agree that people might think of Italy as pasta and wine and that it is partly our job to share what goes beyond that, but the administrative struggle is as Peer pointed out a more general problem here in Italy and does not concern Bocconi very much I think'
Several things I did forget to mention, which is perhaps pretty important to other students thinking of the double degree:
Perhaps try and go for the 3 weeks language school if possible prior to starting at Bocconi, you will be a lot better equipped for Milan than I was initially. Also remember to sign up to the crash course as it is not something you are automatically enrolled in'
If you manage this, chances are better that you will get a good grade in the A2 Italian course that is compulsory at Bocconi in order for you to receive the diploma. Although Bocconi offers a free language course it is not very good in my opinion since we are 40 people (at various levels) if not more and it is very late in the evenings... and furthermore this is only available during the first semester, so if you are still not satisfied with your Italian level you must find some place privately... I am under the impression that Bocconi is trying to accommodate this matter as well :-) - I know it is not so easy to quantify a school and whether my assessment are valid or not I think it can be useful on an intuitive basis, so I have tried to rate Bocconi according to my experience.
From 1-5, 5 being the best (benchmark to CBS = 3):
Academics: 4½ - Depending on which courses you take of course, but most professors are in my opinion very qualified and structured in their teaching methods. The level is also challenging, but not overwhelming, although expect a lot of group work, which can be difficult to coordinate since your group members are taking different classes and matching the calendar is tough, especially because they make groups of 7 people here.
Campus: 1½, - Most buildings are pretty old, usually full of promotion papers on the floor and other leftovers. The auditoriums is nothing compared to CBS neither at Kilen or Solbjerg Plads. The shool cantines are a big disappointment with low quality food and a lot of waiting and few seats. Around the school you find decent alternatives. They use a very old system called Punto Blu... it is for you to insert you study card in machines around campus and process your data in a DOS-version... That is crazy and suits no purpose really.
The school is not connected to any Metro, but several trams takes you there - I live 3 minutes away, so I just walk, but I heard from others it can be a problem...
Social: 3½-4 - Italians can be pretty late for appointments, but they show up and they are very open-minded and conversational, be pro-active'
Sightseeing: 5 - Bocconi arranges fantastic tours around the region which are incredibly beautiful, a must see/go!!!
Milan: 2-4 - Milan is a nice place to live, very small and charming city center and convenient for most purposes with plenty of good restaurants, bars, lounges, clubs etc.., but on the other hand it is colder than expected, claustrophobic, noisy, dirty and loaded with graffiti).
The quality and price of flats and food is in my opinion also acceptable, but not cheap. Most young Milanese people speak English and that makes socializing a lot more easy and convenient than I initially assumed, especially because I am used to go to Rome and the more Southern part of Italy... The negative side of this is that you get less training in your Italian skills :-/
And if it was not clear from my previous submission I strongly recommend the Double Degree at Bocconi, like others here and I it is hardly comparable to being an exchange student, it is a lot better:
Peer it was a very good idea of you, suggesting your e-mail and contact details so in fact I would do the same:
Christopher Lilholm,
lilholm@hotmail.com
+39 329 5872 834 Skype: christopher.lilholm
Please consider that there are many projects and a lot of hard work the next couple of weeks when posting your questions to me, Peer and the rest of us down here, so try and be specific... A presto'
Chris
søn, 22/11/2009 - 22:25
Some good and positive things about being DD Students at Bocconi
From the above discussions, I think that we can conclude that the double degree students from CBS have had very different experiences at Bocconi. In fact, it seems that there has been some variation within the study different programs; where some students have had absolutely no problems, while others have experienced some "unlucky" situations. Now, I would like to use this opportunity to mention some of the good and very positive things about being double degree student at Bocconi.
First and foremost, Italians are outgoing and positive. At Bocconi, the professors are skilled and generally helpful for any questions and there are many extra curricular activities besides the study. Added to this, the climate is a little bit better than DK.
Course evaluation and extracurricular activities:
1. Intellectual Property and Competition Law. Guest speakers frequently give lectures in this course. In this course it was possible to make a report/presentation to earn 1-4 points extra (out of 30). Many students took this opportunity. Further, the course director organizes "happy hours" (conferences with experts in the field of law). Finally, this course offers two weekly "opening hours" (consultation hours) where it is possible to ask questions to the professor and the tutor. For comparison, the courses normally offer 1 hour of consultation per week where students can consult the professor. This course is mandatory for MIB students at Bocconi.
2. Industrial Marketing. This course was very convenient in terms of workload. You "just" need to read the articles before every class and take part of the class discussions beside the presentation and project. You may write the project in groups of two or on individual basis. The grade is based on student presentations (30%), class discussions of case studies/selected articles (30%), and a project report at the end of the course (40%).
3. Topics in e-marketing and e-commerce advanced. This course frequently use inputs from business managers, such as the financial director from e-bay, marketing director Google Italia, etc. and the project report is centered around how Benetton Italia can integrate new e-initiatives in their business model, which therefore works as a kind of a "case competition". It is much fun, but also very much workload because the group project is very time consuming although is "only" counts 30% of the grade.
4. Telecommunications. This course (workshop) was the most rigid of all courses at Bocconi. The teacher practiced a deductive teaching style. If you like cause-and-effect relationships and scientific formulas then you will like this course. If not, then think twice before selecting this course.
5. Life Sciences. This course (workshop) had a very flexible course structure. I learned a lot from a group project (self-study) and Gambardella, who is the course director, was a very positive experience. He is dean of the PhD school at Bocconi. You will be dependent on the group and your final business plan - in my case it was very positive experience because I was lucky enough to get in a group with very skilled co-students.
6. Italian C1. This course has been one of the most positive experiences for me at Bocconi. The teacher is so friendly and frequently brings Italian candies, cakes, champagne, etc. Elisa is the Italian language expert at Bocconi.
You are welcome to phone me for any issue at any time: +393295859848.
All the best,
Kasper
man, 01/03/2010 - 07:08
As you conversation about the
As you conversation about the discussion, a suggestion my side is that there should be a separate discussion forum related to the computer and its tactics and exams such as certification and also the travel as well as mt next exam. Because it’s the time of science and technology.
Tilføj kommentar